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	<title>Comments on: What’s wrong with Feed in Tariffs?</title>
	<atom:link href="http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/whats-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/whats-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/</link>
	<description>Life post oil and post carbon</description>
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		<title>By: Bill Andrews</title>
		<link>http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/whats-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-3092</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill Andrews</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Jan 2009 15:52:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/what%e2%80%99s-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-3092</guid>
		<description>Feed in tariffs will transform the micro and actually medium(5mw) RE development scenario.
Currently even with double ROCS which dont start until April this year the total sales price is around 15P/kwh if you really try you might get 17p. As an example you decide to go for a 5kw wind turbine , cost around £20-22K. The Government grant will be a measly £2500. The income at 15p/kwh if you have a reasonable site( say 6ms annual average wind speed) is around £2000 before expenses like maintenance and insurance.So at best the payback time is over 10 years and ites about three times that for solar. With FITs it drops to under 2 years.QED</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Feed in tariffs will transform the micro and actually medium(5mw) RE development scenario.<br />
Currently even with double ROCS which dont start until April this year the total sales price is around 15P/kwh if you really try you might get 17p. As an example you decide to go for a 5kw wind turbine , cost around £20-22K. The Government grant will be a measly £2500. The income at 15p/kwh if you have a reasonable site( say 6ms annual average wind speed) is around £2000 before expenses like maintenance and insurance.So at best the payback time is over 10 years and ites about three times that for solar. With FITs it drops to under 2 years.QED</p>
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		<title>By: dale</title>
		<link>http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/whats-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-319</link>
		<dc:creator>dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 12:28:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/what%e2%80%99s-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-319</guid>
		<description>@Jon Cowdrill.  

Microgeneration *can* generate grass roots support and involvement, that&#039;s true, it may be the only thing it has going for it - but feed in tariffs don&#039;t per se. 

I don&#039;t know much about the Danish planning system but I do know that wind there didn&#039;t get off the ground in such a big way because of feed in tariffs - it&#039;s widely credited to be because of tax breaks that enabled communities to hold shares in wind turbines (big ones) and this lowered planning issues.  

They have a saying in Denmark (a Wind guy once told me) &quot;You only hear your neighbours dog barking&quot;.  In Germany too the reason for their great capacity in wind is not feed in tariffs causing grass roots support, its a more pragmatic attitude from the Germans about development bolstered by the fact that the market there started with individual farmers owning machines.  

In both cases the market was driven by lots of small local owners and big developers were rare until relatively recently.  In the UK the opposite is the case.  Feed in tariffs lend support to large and small entities as does the RO - neither differentiates between them.     

Cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jon Cowdrill.  </p>
<p>Microgeneration *can* generate grass roots support and involvement, that&#8217;s true, it may be the only thing it has going for it &#8211; but feed in tariffs don&#8217;t per se. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know much about the Danish planning system but I do know that wind there didn&#8217;t get off the ground in such a big way because of feed in tariffs &#8211; it&#8217;s widely credited to be because of tax breaks that enabled communities to hold shares in wind turbines (big ones) and this lowered planning issues.  </p>
<p>They have a saying in Denmark (a Wind guy once told me) &#8220;You only hear your neighbours dog barking&#8221;.  In Germany too the reason for their great capacity in wind is not feed in tariffs causing grass roots support, its a more pragmatic attitude from the Germans about development bolstered by the fact that the market there started with individual farmers owning machines.  </p>
<p>In both cases the market was driven by lots of small local owners and big developers were rare until relatively recently.  In the UK the opposite is the case.  Feed in tariffs lend support to large and small entities as does the RO &#8211; neither differentiates between them.     </p>
<p>Cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Cowdrill</title>
		<link>http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/whats-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-317</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Cowdrill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:37:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/what%e2%80%99s-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-317</guid>
		<description>I tend to disagree. Feed in Tariffs generate a lot of grass-root support and involvement in renewable energy. This is significant in the planning process as enthusiastic local support tends to offset local opposition in the planning process. The RO system supports large companies for which locals have little sympathy for. Denmark’s planning system is not any more lenient than ours.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I tend to disagree. Feed in Tariffs generate a lot of grass-root support and involvement in renewable energy. This is significant in the planning process as enthusiastic local support tends to offset local opposition in the planning process. The RO system supports large companies for which locals have little sympathy for. Denmark’s planning system is not any more lenient than ours.</p>
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		<title>By: martin</title>
		<link>http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/whats-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-63</link>
		<dc:creator>martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Apr 2008 13:30:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/what%e2%80%99s-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-63</guid>
		<description>Sorry but we do not have enough wind power to &quot;power the whole country several times over&quot;. The average electricity consumption per person (total not just in home) 1s 16kWh/d per person. So with 60mm population that requires total supply of 360,000 GwH per year; source Dr Mackay at http://withouthotair.blogspot.com/

We will need a huge number of wind turbines to produce that amount -like covering all of the land space in the UK and much of the sea around - and this is even before we have begun switching to electric cars.

I am all for wind meeting a far greater proportion of our needs but let&#039;s realise that it can come no where near meeting our total needs, even with substantial energy savings we have to embrace all options. It&#039;s too late to be picky on what we use to reduce carbon.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry but we do not have enough wind power to &#8220;power the whole country several times over&#8221;. The average electricity consumption per person (total not just in home) 1s 16kWh/d per person. So with 60mm population that requires total supply of 360,000 GwH per year; source Dr Mackay at <a href="http://withouthotair.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow">http://withouthotair.blogspot.com/</a></p>
<p>We will need a huge number of wind turbines to produce that amount -like covering all of the land space in the UK and much of the sea around &#8211; and this is even before we have begun switching to electric cars.</p>
<p>I am all for wind meeting a far greater proportion of our needs but let&#8217;s realise that it can come no where near meeting our total needs, even with substantial energy savings we have to embrace all options. It&#8217;s too late to be picky on what we use to reduce carbon.</p>
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		<title>By: Wobbly Dave</title>
		<link>http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/whats-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-47</link>
		<dc:creator>Wobbly Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:48:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/what%e2%80%99s-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-47</guid>
		<description>There was a great advert in the independent the other day - &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.solarpowerplayoff.org&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&#039;the solar power playoff&#039;&lt;/a&gt;.

The ad recreates an England vs Germany penalty shootout which Germany win 200 - 1 as Germany has 200 times the amount of Solar power mostly generated by FIT&#039;s.

Get your MP to sign New Clause 4 in the Energy Bill to include a renewable energy reward. It&#039;s gotta be worth it!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There was a great advert in the independent the other day &#8211; <a href="http://www.solarpowerplayoff.org" rel="nofollow">&#8216;the solar power playoff&#8217;</a>.</p>
<p>The ad recreates an England vs Germany penalty shootout which Germany win 200 &#8211; 1 as Germany has 200 times the amount of Solar power mostly generated by FIT&#8217;s.</p>
<p>Get your MP to sign New Clause 4 in the Energy Bill to include a renewable energy reward. It&#8217;s gotta be worth it!</p>
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		<title>By: nommo</title>
		<link>http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/whats-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-46</link>
		<dc:creator>nommo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Apr 2008 09:17:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/what%e2%80%99s-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-46</guid>
		<description>I agree that it is good to get people involved.. I really like what &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rebeccawillis.co.uk/grid2.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Rebecca Willis says about Grid 2.0&lt;/a&gt;, also &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/efficiencity/about&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Greenpeace&#039;s thoughts on Decentralised Energy&lt;/a&gt; - I have a feeling that getting people involved (and getting big business *less* involved) is going to be the only way...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that it is good to get people involved.. I really like what <a href="http://www.rebeccawillis.co.uk/grid2.html" rel="nofollow">Rebecca Willis says about Grid 2.0</a>, also <a href="http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/efficiencity/about" rel="nofollow">Greenpeace&#8217;s thoughts on Decentralised Energy</a> &#8211; I have a feeling that getting people involved (and getting big business *less* involved) is going to be the only way&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Damon Hart-Davis</title>
		<link>http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/whats-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-44</link>
		<dc:creator>Damon Hart-Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 14:03:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/what%e2%80%99s-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-44</guid>
		<description>Thanks: looking forward to part 2!

Rgds

Damon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks: looking forward to part 2!</p>
<p>Rgds</p>
<p>Damon</p>
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		<title>By: dale</title>
		<link>http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/whats-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>dale</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 21 Apr 2008 07:53:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/what%e2%80%99s-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-43</guid>
		<description>Hi Damon, I was only talking about larger projects in my earlier post, I should have said.  I&#039;m going to post something on micro generation and feed in tariffs next, it&#039;s a bit different.  Multiple ROCs is definitely one way to support the micro sector (without FITs) - and in fact it&#039;s started already, from next year there&#039;s two ROCs available for wind and solar on houses.  We&#039;re doubling our payment from 4.5 to 9p on the back of that but we&#039;re kicking off next week - about a year ahead of the double ROCs - so you can see we are trying to do our bit.  We pay on ROC value because we can&#039;t actually use the electricity itself - nobody can.  I&#039;ll explain that in part 2 of the FIT story.

Big scale Renewables are far far more economic, and therefore sustainable, in terms of material use per energy output  - and so it&#039;s where the biggest efforts should go (the world is getting shorter of materials).  But I&#039;m a big believer in getting people involved, that&#039;s what we&#039;re trying to do, and microgeneration is, after all &#039;something you can try at home&#039; - it&#039;s a good thing to do.

Cheers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Damon, I was only talking about larger projects in my earlier post, I should have said.  I&#8217;m going to post something on micro generation and feed in tariffs next, it&#8217;s a bit different.  Multiple ROCs is definitely one way to support the micro sector (without FITs) &#8211; and in fact it&#8217;s started already, from next year there&#8217;s two ROCs available for wind and solar on houses.  We&#8217;re doubling our payment from 4.5 to 9p on the back of that but we&#8217;re kicking off next week &#8211; about a year ahead of the double ROCs &#8211; so you can see we are trying to do our bit.  We pay on ROC value because we can&#8217;t actually use the electricity itself &#8211; nobody can.  I&#8217;ll explain that in part 2 of the FIT story.</p>
<p>Big scale Renewables are far far more economic, and therefore sustainable, in terms of material use per energy output  &#8211; and so it&#8217;s where the biggest efforts should go (the world is getting shorter of materials).  But I&#8217;m a big believer in getting people involved, that&#8217;s what we&#8217;re trying to do, and microgeneration is, after all &#8217;something you can try at home&#8217; &#8211; it&#8217;s a good thing to do.</p>
<p>Cheers.</p>
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		<title>By: Damon Hart-Davis</title>
		<link>http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/whats-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-33</link>
		<dc:creator>Damon Hart-Davis</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Apr 2008 07:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://zerocarbonista.com/2008/04/17/what%e2%80%99s-wrong-with-feed-in-tariffs/#comment-33</guid>
		<description>Hi!

Thanks for that, but...

I agree only if you are talking about larger projects, unless you&#039;d be prepared to provide larger ROC payments for microgeneration to get people involved.  For example, you/Ecotricity are only paying me 4.5p/kWh (incl VAT) for my PV microgenerated power even though we generated significantly more than we consumed yesterday and we&#039;ve made heavy investment in efficiency and generation here at home to get there.  Where&#039;s the incentive in 4.5p?  Why not more like the 20p/kWh elsewhere in the EU and/or officially supporting net metering?

(Not that I&#039;m complaining about the rate per se, but in the absence of claiming grants my pockets are only so deep!)

Don&#039;t forget getting &#039;mindshare&#039; from individuals, not just bulk RE...

Rgds

Damon</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi!</p>
<p>Thanks for that, but&#8230;</p>
<p>I agree only if you are talking about larger projects, unless you&#8217;d be prepared to provide larger ROC payments for microgeneration to get people involved.  For example, you/Ecotricity are only paying me 4.5p/kWh (incl VAT) for my PV microgenerated power even though we generated significantly more than we consumed yesterday and we&#8217;ve made heavy investment in efficiency and generation here at home to get there.  Where&#8217;s the incentive in 4.5p?  Why not more like the 20p/kWh elsewhere in the EU and/or officially supporting net metering?</p>
<p>(Not that I&#8217;m complaining about the rate per se, but in the absence of claiming grants my pockets are only so deep!)</p>
<p>Don&#8217;t forget getting &#8216;mindshare&#8217; from individuals, not just bulk RE&#8230;</p>
<p>Rgds</p>
<p>Damon</p>
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