But the discrepancy that strikes me about this report is it’s timing. Specifically equating the potential to deliver bio-methane into the national grid in the year 2020 against 2008 gas consumption figures (pages 4 and 5 of the report for those who wish to delve deeper).

Applying the legally binding decarbonisation obligations contained within the UK Climate Change Act 2008 (a 34% reduction by 2020 and an 80% reduction by 2050, against a 777.8 million tons of carbon dioxide equivalent baseline – UK emissons were 606.7 MtCO2e in 2008), then by 2020 National Grid’s ‘stretch’ scenario would in fact deliver the following:

22.5% of total UK gas demand in 2020 (not 18%)
62.2% of UK residential gas demand in 2020 (not 48%)

Taking this line of reasoning to its natural conclusion would deliver the following:

74.1% of total UK gas demand in 2050
100% of UK residential gas demand in 2050

Without investment in Green Gas by a foresighted energy company like Ecotricity, the UK will not capitalise on its own skills and resources.

I therefore support Ecotricity’s aims – how many other energy companies can you name that have grasped the importance of supplying Green Gas?

Best regards
Jeff

It’s a lot, just not quite as much as the headline figure, and this may explain the discrepancy notice by Jeffrey Lam.

Still, keep up the good work.

Germany, it seems, is a bit ahead in this, There are more than 4500 plants although only 30 of these currently feed their biogas anywhere outside their plant (and some of these feed to gas stations), most are farm size plants used to create electricity and heat for the farm. Apparently this started in the 1930s, amazing.
I am a bit concerned about the scalability and speed with which these plants can be constructed. Only lat year the largest plant in the federal state of Hessia in Germany was constructed and according to the PR it produces 2.9million m3 biogas p.a. for about 1000 cutomers using raw material supplied by 20 farmers. It cost 6.5 million €. Are they throwing money at it or are these really this expensive? Currently they are constructing one in the east of Germany which will produce 15 mn m3, unfortunately no price tag on that one.

So, Dale, I know small steps but we have to go them and all, but…where will be be in 2020 with this, do you think.? Here in Germany they are expecting 20% by then…seems huge to me given that it is currently less than 1%…
when I looked for the UK figure I came across your announcement of the first one ever in the UK…

Regards,
Petra

Here’s an explanation from someone who knows a bit more about it than me – hope it helps…

Biogas is a mixture of methane and impurities such as carbon dioxide which need to be removed before the gas can be injected into the grid. Your figures for biogas refer to the gas before clean up, once the impurities have been removed biomethane has a calorific value of 36.6MJ/mn3. At this stage an odorant is added to the gas along with a small amount (~4%)of propane to bring the calorific value up to match grid gas, around 38MJ/mn3.

So no, don’t panic, nobody is going to notice any difference in the quality of gas coming through their pipes, the only change will be the quality of their gas supplier as everyone changes to Ecotricity

I’d really like to be able to understand this. Is there a British Standard which dictates the CV at which gas is injected into the grid? My thought was that if the grid was 50% natural gas, 50% biogas, the overal CV of the grid would drop to about 31MJ/m3, which could mean that those 50% who were paying for natural gas were in effect subsidising the other 50% who were paying for biogas?

I know this is only theoretical, but I’d like to understand this better please if anyone can explain.

Thanks

Now I want to see that AD methane flowing in to match our cooking, etc! B^>

Rgds

Damon

I looked at the BG duel fuel discounts and obviously they have several but I’m presuming it’s along the lines of their ‘standard’ discount.

Would it not be possible to actually price match the British Gas standard duel fuel price, rather than just the discount? I’m guessing with such small margins it’s not possible?

Anyway – this is excellent news and I’m just impatient to get cracking with it!

I just want to explain a previous question earlier on this long page…its a question about about Methane Verses CO2.

I agree if one has some methane from landfill – may as well use it ..and of course I love the choice you are offering to customers.

But, back to theory for a moment: if you have a fresh body of biomass.. one can choose to get energy from that biomass by numerous ways (There are numerous biofuels afterall – liquid, gaseus, solids – and many different types within each state besides) .

1. What I’m keen to have clarified is that given a weight of biomass (assume correct Carbon to Nitrogen ratio etc) … if, for instance, an amount is simply dried and burnt to make energy and CO2…would the energy and greenhouse gas potency be greater, equal or smaller than if the same amount of biomass was anaerobically digested then burnt to make energy (given methane is more potent GHG) ?

i.e. a comparison of greenhouse gas potency per kW energy made from 2 different methods.

2. I dont get the chemistry.. does the methane reduce in its potency as a GHG when burnt – as it chemically changes or still more potent even then?

The answer of course has a huge bearing on how the nation uses its limited biomass resources – especially when there are dedicated crops for energy

I hope Ive explained the question better this time.. . does anyone have any answers to questions 1 and 2?

Or do you know of any figures on this kind of comparison:
specifically between combustion (Carbon dioxide) and anaerobic digestion (Methane) given an equal body of biomass as a starting point between the 2 processes?

Adi

The electricity grid has a capacity of ~80GW but the gas grid is much more than double that according to my sums on fingers and toes from when the gas alerts were being announced.

Rgds

Damon

The COP value of air to air heat pumps is best – Hitachi just brought out one claiming 6! The worceste Bosch one referred to is pretty good at about 4.5 (but remember this is a figure only at standard test conditions). With its blowing etc its not a nice form of heating for the bedroom ( I have one and its a bit annoying!)

Air to air heat pumps wont heat your water!! For direct replacement of gas etc one would need an air to water or ground to water or water to water heat pump.

Heat pumps (except air to air) are only really suitable for well insulated properties so if, for instance, a listed building prevents that, the the best environmental solution is to use a carbon neutral fuel like a pellet burner – maybe with wood chamber or Oil burner with biodiesel nozzle as choice.. All grown sustainably grown fuel being carbon neutral.

Anyway the air to water is more like a COP of 3 and Ground more like 4 (for normal useage) … (meaning 1 kw of electric put into machine achieves 3 and 4 kW of heat output respectively). Hope that
helps clarity.

Price wise :Air to air heat pumps about 1/4 of cost of air to water (which will do all your heating and all your hot water) and ground source heat pumps .. you can add a couple more grand + ground works cost to bury tube (horizontally or down borehole if space limited)

Adi

The most economical and environmentally friendly heating using electricity is to install a heat pump.

Air to air or air to water heat pumps are the cheapest to install and save digging the ground up for a ground source heat pump installation

Lots of heat pump advice on http://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk

I have this winter installed the Worcester bosch air to air heat pump but I might need to install a air to water heat pump for severe conditions.

In the mean time, Dale – how long will it be before we can start buying our gas from ecotricity?

Dale is pretty busy with Green Gas launch etc, hence the lack of replies from him on here recently….

Here’s my two-pence for what it is worth, just thinking out loud – not delivering the company line

It’s supply and demand, free market thing – ‘economical’ for who is the question. The oil and gas barons are currently pumping billions of dollars worth of stuff out of the ground every minute of every day, and their profits are set to keep rising even during peak oil… they will never make the same profits from reprocessing waste and other sensible, frugal measures.

Simple as that in my mind.

But the environment skeptic thing is much deeper than economics – or at least the economics is founded on something deeper. Mostly it’s just a personal philosophy of “take what you can, while you can and f*** the future and everyone else”.

Paul

We are currently going through a phased launch, starting with our existing customers who registered their interest earlier on in the process.

Once we have signed all of those up and everyone is happy with the service – we will then start rolling out to non-customers. If you haven’t registered your interest yet – it might be worth doing so that you can get in the queue.

Can’t say how long it will be yet sorry, but we hope the timing works out for you with your move….

Thanks
Paul

Hmm – both

Just as when we started our electricity model 15 years ago, we’ll start mainly with ordinary ‘brown’ supplies of gas, putting a percentage of green gas from sources in Europe into that mix pretty soon, and then we’ll be re-investing the money from gas customers’ bills into building our own sources of New Green Gas.

We’re now providing customers with 45.6% green electricity all from our own windmills. The aim with Green Gas will be – just like our electricity – to change where our energy comes from and improve Britain’s energy security for the future…

Paul

Cheers.

It would be nice, of course, if there was less of it, or if it wasn’t there at all, but while it is it seems a shame not to use it.

If in some way it does actually support factory farming, I guess that’s a different matter.

Landfill creates mainly methane, as does AD as both break down the waste under anaerobic conditions. As methane is more potent a Greenhouse gas than Carbon Dioxide it’s better to burn the methane and release the CO2 than just release the CO2 to the atmosphere. This helps to recycle the carbon that was extracted from the atmosphere by a plant as it grows. It’s all part of the carbon cycle.

Burning fossil fuels releases carbon that’s been trapped for millions of years, adding it to the natural carbon cycle and increasing atmospheric levels of CO2.

So there is a definite difference between burning fossil gas from the North Sea and burning biogas from an AD plant.

Composting, if done properly , creates CO2 as it’s an aerobic method of breaking stuff down. Downside is there’s no energy generation, just straight release of CO2 to the atmosphere as Dale pointed out above.