New Green Jack New Green Jack

97 responses to “Wind Car Update – 12 of 6”

    • Simba

      shame about having to change electricians, but that massive circuit board looked really cool!

      my personal favourite has to be the pop down flap for the fast charger. it’s the little touches which make a car great.

      speaking of which, can you make sure there is some super quirky cup holder! Something that flips out from the dash in a new and unexpected way…

        • dale Vince

          Oh no, we completely overlooked the cup holders…..:)

        • Jeffrey Lam

          the cup holders are going to need to prevent spills under high acceleration and fast cornering! 🙂

            • Jonny Holt

              Hello Jeffrey,

              I envisage cupholders on gimbals, like the galley on a sailing yacht, to prevent spillage in hard cornering. On second thoughts – they should be really lightweight and minimal, in homage to the donor car. In the words of Lotus founder Colin Chapman, “add lightness”.
              Also, consider how many cupholders are needed? Don’t be misled into thinking each occupant needs just the one. There might be a hot drink and also a cold one – not to mention a 2-litre bottle of fizzy pop for fast lane re-fills. A recently launched 7-seater SUV that I had the dubious honour of contributing to a few years ago has no less than 10 cup holders. Not only that, the requirement for some of them to be large enough to hold a McDonalds US “big gulp” cup meant that the aircon and ventilation package was compromised. This was considered to be a worthwhile trade-off. (This is true).
              So cupholders are of prime importance in the world of car design. Weight, performance, space and safety are secondary concerns.
              Best regards,
              Jonny.

                • Jeffrey Lam

                  Hello Jonny,
                  Well you could argue that cupholders do in fact enhance safety… Imagine trying to corner while spilling hot coffee on your lap…
                  Best regards,
                  Jeff

                • Simba

                  @Jonny

                  glad to see I’m not the only one who sees cup holders as paramount to a successful journey. For once the industry got it right… 😛

                  Although hopefully McDonalds wont be high up on the list of Eateries visited by anyone in an EV.

                  What about a cycling inspired camel pack? in fact that would ensure filling stations don’t become completely redundant! you’d just top up on your preferred beverage instead of fuel; coffee, tea OJ or water.

                  All Lead free ofc.

    • Derek

      Dale

      Do you plan to exhibit the car at your Stroud HQ so your local fans can view it. Maybe a demo drive?

      Derek

        • dale Vince

          Hi Derek, I reckon the car will be in Stroud sometime in August. I hope to be driving it around (again) – and if you should happen to bump into me (not with your car preferably) I’d def take you for a spin.

          Cheers.

    • Nick Somebody

      Wow. I had been periodically looking at this site for months, but there was nothing. It’s great to see another video. I was wondering what had happened to the car.

      I’m glad it is so close to being ready. It’s looking good. The track tests should be really interesting. It will be great to find out the specs for the car. The info I’m really interested in is the 0-60 mph time, the top speed and the MPGe figure.

      Are you still planning on doing the green union jack paint job?

        • dale Vince

          Hi Nick, green Jack paint job has morphed into a version of that in tones of grey, looks good though. Off to the pain shop in a couple more weeks I hope.

          Cheers.

            • dale Vince

              Doh, I meant paint shop (I’m sure I did)…:)

    • Mark Colston

      I spoke to Tim when he attended the ‘Zero Carbon Racing’ conference at the NEC in January. He had a BMS ready to go in Dale’s car back in December 2009, so I’m not sure about the time-line of this video?

        • dale Vince

          Hi Mark, This video tries to cover the quite long period since the last one and include some comments on the (now old news) BMS issue, partly for the sake of the bigger video that’s being assembled.

          I know that Tim said his BMS was ready just after we decided we had to find an alternative (in Dec last year), I’m doubtful that it was actually ready.

          Tim’s a good guy but he really had no idea how big a job this was. Actually still is, our current BMS is behind target (date wise) and still not quite right. One more week I’m told…..

          Cheers.

            • Mark Colston

              Actually Dale, with respect, I suspect that you didn’t know how big a job it was. It would seem the replacement didn’t either, otherwise it would be working now.

              I’ve no doubt Tim’s was at least ready to test back in December and you would have had a car that was actually drivable safely by now.

                • Dave

                  hmmm.. I wonder why it is taking so long. We have built an electric car (with working BMS) in about 8 months, see http://www.racinggreenendurance.com – the key was using as much off the shelf stuff as possible. I guess we had some very nice sponsors too such as Frazer Nash who gave a lot of really hands on support with the BMS. But we had a graduate testing batteries every day for about 4 months. It works great though! The team have driven 2500 miles in Alaska and Canada so far, check out the website.

    • Jeffrey Lam

      Exactly what I’ve been waiting for… another episode. One of the guys comments made me laugh… He said “I can finally get some sleep”, rather that “I can finally get my life back!” Hahaha!

      Good progress being made. Well done.

    • Al

      Dale, care to comment on the 2 billion dollar valuation of Tesla?!!!

        • Simba

          is that 2 billion Zimbabwean dollars? 😛

        • dale Vince

          Hmm, that’s an interesting question Al.

          There’s clearly a lot of hope (or hype) value in that price tag.

          The Tesla Roadster is a decent enough car but it’s sold at less than cost as I understand it and the technology is pretty out of date. And it’s a discontinued car anyhow. So hard to see much of the value based on that.

          The hope value must be in the next car(s). But I struggle with the predicted price and performance, looks like a very tall order to me.

          And with most of the major car makers piling in to this sector now, it’s going to be a very tough market place, unless Tesla have some great technology – no sign of that though IMO (not yet).

          Cheers.

            • Jonny Holt

              Hello Dale et Al,

              The market agrees with you.

              http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/10536633.stm

              Any high performance sports car – or luxury saloon, their next model – is a precarious investment vehicle in an uncertain market. Investors are still nervous that global consumers are going to stop spending on toys and indulgences and concentrate on mere necessities. For all the apparent innovation that Tesla might be thought to represent, it is possibly just as fragile a punt as any of its fossil-fuelled rivals, if it is irrelevant to the business of staying afloat.

              We need truly innovative, functional, minimal and democratic cars, embracing the opportunity of the coming demise of oil dependency. Elitist electric supercars send out a confusing message; that it is all about the affluent salving their consciences, but continuing their inequitable behaviour unabated. Don’t misunderstand me; I believe they have their place, particularly if they lead directly and quickly to mass market vehicles. I just don’t believe they are as immediately relevant to solving the energy and personal transport issues of the global motorist as a new take on the Model T Ford, VW Beetle, Citroen 2CV, Fiat Topolino or Morris Mini Minor.

              Now, what about that Ecotrici-tractor?

              Best regards,

              Jonny.

                • Dale Vince

                  Thanks Jonny.

                  The wind powered tractor is next on our list. I’m meeting with a tractor manufacturer in the next couple of weeks. Should be ‘in the field’ this year.

                  Cheers.

                    • Martin

                      The Wind Tractor would be great for developing countries will you bearing that in mind with the cost of the design and the maintenance issues?

                      Also wouldn’t it be a good design to make a 4 x 4 that was wind powered (with maybe some solar booster panels in the roof or on the fron dash under the windscreen) so that all all terrain vehicle could in effect be independent from any real need for fuel supply (expect military people to come asking about that one)?

                      Have you seen the Humdinger wind power generator? Is that a bit of technology that might be good to incorporate into a wind powered car design?

                    • keith gerrard

                      Simple matter to make a large farm self sufficient on energy Dale. In the 1970s I was involved with compacted straw and even ran a tractor on powdered straw. We also instaled a multi pass straw burner/generator at a pig farm that heated all the pig units and supplied power for the whole farm unit.
                      Just convince the vested interest farm industry to develop electric tractors and combines and then give me a call. Oh and it would be useful for them to return to long stemmed straw but that will not be acceptable to the chemical aggro lot.
                      By the way, Tim did finish the BM unit for the car, I was with him in Birmingham after placing an official paper before the FIA AEC about Carbon Neutral Motor Sport. Interested yet?

    • lester

      thats a good looking car you made but where is the wind tubine to power it you never show any picture of it , can you make more power with the tubine then what the car uses?

        • Derek

          Lester

          This subject has been raised before. There is no wind turbine on the car. The batteries on the car are recharged from wind turbines on the electricity grid system.

          Derek

        • dale Vince

          Hi Lester, we’ve got a bunch of windmills (as I prefer to call them) installed up and down the UK, you can find more details on our web site ecotricity.co..uk.

          Our thinking is that Electric Vehicles should (and could) be powered from the existing electric grid, fed by large scale windmills.

          We use the term wind powered car in order to highlight the necessary end game for EVs – the electricity has to come from somewhere and should come from renewable sources (like the wind).

          Hope that explains better.

          Cheers.

            • L.Walters

              Just a random thought (because I’m listening to the Official 2010 World Cup Song (Waka Waka-Shakira)) but could we have the 2014 Ecotricity-FIFA World Cup? 😀

                • paul

                  Hiya Lester,

                  Firstly – thanks for dropping by.

                  Hmmm – I am sure we would LOVE to have the spare cash to sponsor the World Cup…. sadly that’s a bit too expensive for us, at this stage at least…

                  Each major World Cup sponsor paid approx $10-25 million per year since 2007 – so that could pay for a lot of turbines!

                  We do occasionally sponsor exciting projects like Greenbird – but we try to get the best value for money in exchange for exposure.

                  Cheers
                  Paul – Online Community Manger – Ecotricity

                    • Jeffrey Lam

                      Could always go for the “ambush marketing” approach, like Nike and a certain beer company…

            • Bruno Diniz

              Hi Dale.
              The issue replacement of batteries could be a huge problem large as than fossil fuel. And about this problem? The batteries process discard is now about a problem in cell phone industries.
              How this kind of matter is being analised by Ecotricity?

              Bruno Diniz,

        • L.Walters

          No offence but asking whether it uses more than the turbine makes is a bit silly. Apparently one turbine can power all of Minchinhampton (the village I live in), and my ‘village’ is technically a ‘town’.

    • Jack Rickard

      The real shame is that you didn’t need to do it at all. The cells you are using do not have thermal issues, and the BMS you have developed, which clearly has current shunts to “top balance” the cells are actually damaging them.

      We’ve done extensive testing of these batteries and numerous BMS systems and have come to the conclusion that you do not need a BMS at all, certainly not a shunt balancer, and that it poses a fire hazard to your car and will most likely damage your cells at the minimum. You certainly do NOT want to balance these cells at teh top of charge under any conditions.

      We have a whole series of videos on this at http://EVTV.me.

      Jack Rickard

        • dale Vince

          Hi Jack, thanks for this, I’m interested to know more.

          Can we have a chat?

          Cheers.

            • JackRickard

              Sure.573-576-7614

        • Dave

          Jack for the sake of those of us into these things, can you provide more info? All cells in a pack have slightly different characteristics and therefore will diverge over time. Series strings will be limited by the ‘weakest link’. Surely you DO need a BMS to (1) know whether there are any problems with a specific cell and whether to shut down the car as a result (2) balance the cells to get the most capacity – otherwise you’re limited by the capacity of the worst cell.

            • Jack Rickard

              First, they do NOT diverge over time. This is a very common myth with no data to support it. I’ve been playing with these cells daily for two years and it just is not true.

              You not only do not NEED to balance them, but you can damage them if you do so. The cells do vary slightly in capacity and the shunt balancers you all are using, in addition to being demonstrably a fire hazard, “balance” them at the top of the charge curve. That UNBALANCES them at the bottom of the charge curve. Unfortunately, we charge at 30 amps and discharge at 600 and you do NOT want them out of balance in at the end of the charge curve, should you inadvertantly venture there.

              You should of course monitor the cells. The problem is you need to be VERY careful of the wiring. In fact, I had a little flamer this evening – same thing, monitoring wiring on a test car.

              You should of course monitor pack voltage and use AH in and AH out to monitor state of charge on the pack. But monitoring individual cells tends to do more damage than it prevents. If you MUST, there is a device called a Cell Log 8S that a lot of the radio control helicopter guys use. It’s relatively harmless, assuming you are VERY careful with the little monitoring wires and each unit will monitor 8 cells. It is $29.95.

              We have 12000 miles now on the Speedster and a couple of thousand on the Mini Cooper. It just isn’t a problem. But I’ve got a whole collection of guys who’ve messed up cars pretty badly doing this BMS thing. Buy two more cells and forget it.

              You might check out our videos for further info on prismatic LiFePo4 cells and BMS and so forth at http://EVTV.me

              Jack Rickard

                • keith gerrard

                  Dear Jack
                  I think your comments on the need for a BMS is a little over simplified but as I am not an electronics expert I will leave it to others to discus.
                  I have watched your videos with great interest and admire your obvious expertise, however I will comment on a subject in which I am an expert, transmissions.
                  Were you aware that the Tesla originaly had a three speed transmission, then a two speed and now has a single speed because they could not get the two speed to last more than 2000 miles under test load.
                  I understand that your speedster transaxle was returned to the supplier with problems. This does not surprise me. Running this unit for long time periods in second or third gear, with the flat torque curve of an electric motor will almost certainly result in excess wear in the geartrain and a variable torque loss sufficient to upset any figures gained on regen braking etc.
                  I suggest you either remove most of the gearing and run on just the diff gearing, or contact my friends at Hewland Engineering for advice on a competition transaxle replacement.
                  I have a patented ESERU (elactric shift energy recovery unit), which is the next generation replacement for the gearbox in hybrid and EVs if you are interested.

    • leo

      At last, a new video!
      Just wondering about the back of the car:
      What’s with all those wheels and pullies?
      Is this your cable retraction system for the charging cable, rather like in a very big posh vacuum cleaner?
      Just looks a bit, well, over-kill.
      This contraption takes up all of the boot space too (if there is any…)?
      Anyway, love all those bespoke CNC and carbon moulds.
      It looks the dogs *&^””%$! 🙂
      Lots of respect for the engineering team and Tim for getting this thing moving.
      Next video: Drag race against a Tesla 😉

        • dale Vince

          Thanks Leo, more on the wheels and pullies later…….

          there was no real boot space though BTW.

          Cheers.

    • L.Walters

      Hi,
      Im only 12 and I don’t want to really annoy you or any thing but my Dad (a customer of Ecotricity…:D) has this idea which seems quite good. Instead of having a battery fixed in the car and having to wait hours for a full recharge why don’t you have a removable, rather large lump of li-ion battery. Then at ‘fuel’ stations around the world there is a huge stack of batteries. You pay a deposit at the beggining (when you buy the car (or possibly you buy one with the car)) and then you give them your battery (flat), they give you a charged one in return and you pay them for the energy. Now you don’t need to wait two hours for the ‘fuel’ station to charge up the battery. The stations have huge racks of chargers (possibly underground?) and they will always have a ready-to-go battery pack for you. May work, may not. Let me know what you think (preferably by email). Yeah, that’s all, Thanks.

      PS. I am Dapizz1 who commented on your YouTube video.

        • paul

          Heya,

          We have wondered about the battery swap idea before – as you say – it might work, but at least at this stage in the game, it would be really tricky to force all electric car manufacturers to use the same kind of battery – or alternatively for each ‘swap shop’ to stock all types of battery pack.

          There are some projects under way to do just that though – like Project Better Place. I guess we will have to see how things pan out in the future…

          BTW – I should really turn off comments on the Youtube channel – the signal to noise ratio is pretty bad! See – I even missed your comment 🙁

          Thanks again for dropping by here though…

          Cheers
          Paul

    • L.Walters

      Oh, I didn’t realize this was a WordPress Blog!

        • paul

          Aye – it’s a self-hosted version of WordPress, we used the Hybrid Theme Framework and the skills of our designer & developer to make a nice child theme…. hope you like?

          And yep -that means it works with Gravatars 🙂

          Cheers
          Paul

    • L.Walters

      Yeah, DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE!

        • keith gerrard

          Ehh yes fine but to prove what exactly?
          One make EVs do not realy prove much in competition.
          Other than which EV is faster and which goes further.
          For vehicles priced way above the public practical level this is irelevent. Realy just an indulgence.
          What is needed is a level playing field supported by a sensible set of regulations.
          This only exists in electric motor cycle racing and in Hybrids at present.

            • Simba

              @ Keith

              you make a good point, however

              DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE! DRAG RACE!

                • keith gerrard

                  Yes I agree
                  Dale needs to run the car on the drag strip simply to regain the interest of the media.
                  If he can beat the 11 second 100 plus I achieved with my 600 bhp Ford Mustang in the 1970s I would be impressed.

                    • Simba

                      That is mighty fast. you didn’t happen to catch it on film AND upload it onto Youtube did you? (obviously uploaded it a bit later than 1970’s 😛 )

                      Speaking of bhp what is the predicted bhp of the nemesis anyway. 200? 300? 400!? je ne sais pas.

                      But acceleration is an EV strong point so you’d expect it to outperform an FFV (fossil fuel vehicle) in a sprint/drag race. Right?

                    • Dale Vince

                      HI Keith, we had the Nemesis out on the track last week and have some interesting data. There should be a new video and post early this week.

                      Don’t want to pre empt that, but ….. can tell you that our first stab at a standing quarter saw us clock 12.7 seconds and cross the line at 113 mph+. That’s with 250kW at the rear wheels.

                      0 to 100 mph was awesome. More on that in the post.

                      And I agree, we kind of do need to race EVs (or wind powered cars as I prefer). It’s the kind of thing that gets interest (especially in the media) and it undoes the ‘popular’ image of green things being all about sacrifice.

                      That’s why we decided to build this car, to show that driving in the future, without oil, will not only be possible, it will be fun.

                      Cheers.

    • keith gerrard

      No videos just old newspaper clippings.
      In theory EVs should be able to outperform ic engined vehicles on short sprints.
      However, it all depends on what comparison is made in any regulations.
      It is the regulations that are still badly lacking for any EV racing.
      Until a comprehensive range of regulations is established, actual performance events with EVs will not mean very much. THIS IS THE CRUCIAL ISSUE. preventing EV racing progress.
      So far, although EVs are potentialy very fast, they have not reached an ultimate performance that exceeds the fastest ic machines.
      Those who set regulations internationaly seem to believe that EV racing technology is not yet mature enough to regulate in specific official classes. Until this is done, the oil lobby will continue to hold EV progress back by manipulating public opinion to perceive EV racing as an expensive indulgence.
      I have an official paper before the FIA AEC (alternate energy commision), that covers this actual point.
      Racing is IMO the only way that EVs will gain full support in the world public.

    • Robin Smith

      I really like the electric car. I recently finished my own trial of a production electric car and was very impressed with its energy performance. Its’ a big deal

      http://gco2e.blogspot.com/search/label/electriccar

      The only downside was the marketing spin which way over-claims on fuel efficiency and CO2 emissions.

      This is a real shame. When the masses see they have been deceived they will no longer trust any further claims made even if true and this may well ruin the great benefits and opportunities for the cars

      Also the recently announced £5k subsidy is hugely regressive and the poor will be paying for it through tax on their incomes, even though they will not have access to it due to the high start-up costs.

      On the whole I’m positive. And am happy to receive questions.

        • keith gerrard

          I have never accepted any of the official comparisons between fossil fuel powered vehicles and those powered by electricity Robin.
          The figures banded about that state well to tailpipe and source to environment calculations are far to complex to conclude any absolute figures.
          For me this is not the most important issue anyway.
          Electric vehicles are simply a cleaner and more efficient way to apply energy for transport, the source can be anything.
          The main thing with EVs is that they help the development of alternate non-fossil energy production and until this fact is promoted over and above the convenient hype on figures that support the greedy fossil lobby world wide, little progress will be made.
          At the moment the greedy are making us compare apples with oranges.

    • Robin Smith

      @Keith Gerrard

      You miss the point. If the EV lobby misrepresents the truth, their constituents will be punished in the end, no matter how well they do to begin with. This is a law of nature. You cannot take more out of production than you put in, on the whole, except through begging and robbing.

      Thats a choice they must make. I hope they have more integrity than they have shown so far.

      The greedy in the example I make are the EV lobby. No one has a monopoly on corruption of the truth. the numbers are extremely easy to calculate. Primary school maths. To say otherwise is to once again obscure the truth.

      Ecotricity did this with the wind tubrbine in Green Park too

        • keith gerrard

          I believe it is you who is missing the point Robin.
          I am not trying to directly discredit any figures,
          I am simply pointing out, the control over continued use of fossil fuel that such figures always give to those who support fossil fuel because the figures always assume the need for a fossil energy source as a base.
          Non fossil energy use does not release any CO2 to increase the amount of free CO2 in the atmosphere, a huge difference and conveniently over looked for the benefit of fossil fuel profiteers..
          Alternate energy production cannot be directly compared to fossil fuel sources for this reason.
          Fossil fuel use releases MORE CO2 into our environment, alternate energy use DOES NOT, this is the important conclusion. Apples and Oranges.
          I am sure your figures can be done at primary school Robin, that does not give them either accuracy or relevence.
          If you feel strongly about it, please post your figures in full and I am certain there will be many posters willing to contradict them in endless detail.
          Just one page of figures based on one EV used over a short period is of little if any use.
          There will never be a factual conclusion for or against EVs using such figures because there are to many variables. If there was it would confirm a need for either continued fossil fuel use or a complete change away from that source of energy. The figures can blow political smoke but they conclude nothing.
          Electric vehicles do away with the need to carry fossil fuel and allow further development of non fossil energy at larger more efficient and cleaner production centers.
          This is the main reason to continue development.

    • Robin Smith

      I cannot make sense of what you have said here. Please try me again but in simple terms that a child could understand. Its not complex.

      The evidence I have supplied is primary school. A small child could understand it and know it to be true with great ease.

      That its being denied by an adult can mean only one thing. It is in your special interest to deny it. Prejudicial. And this is the point about the green lobby bringing about its own pain.

      Its OK I see this first hand all the time in our highest academies, in local Council, Parliament and rife inthe media.

      Where will it all end. To suggest I do not understand my own point is quite a striking statement of arrogance.

        • keith gerrard

          Firstly Robin, I do not do personal insults, or respond to them.
          Secondly, I cannot respond to your request for greater clarification, because you have not explained this all important truth to us.
          My point is that it is irelevent to directly compare EVs with fossil fuel vehicles, so long as EVs do the job, even if some are less efficiently in performance as many are at present.
          The issue is to reduce the amount of CO2 going into the atmosphere. This will only be achieved by fazing out fossil fuel vehicles and finding alternate methods of energy production. This can never be in balance with the American Dream for profit by any means and must be developed from a different social moral base than oil dependency.
          Your attack against the green lobby is frankly highly hypocritical. I have to agree that there are many claims made that stretch the present potential of electric traction, however. compared to the filth that is continualy covered up by oil use this is a tiny drop in the corrupt ocean of human illusion.
          I do not say that changing to EVs and alternate energy will be in any way easy. I simply say that it is inevitable.

    • Robin Smith

      The truth is simple. Its all there in black and white. The more you deny it, the more intense is your denial. Quite amazing! To claim that stating observed facts is an insult only makes things worse for you. Yet you did respond so it cannot have been an insult in your own terms. Good!

      Its OK I see this type of thinking permeating society in all directions on a daily basis. It is how injustice operates so well through our own ignorance and selfishness.

      We will fail to reduce the CO2 if we keep exploiting less fortunate people. The primary method by which that occurs is to obscure the simple truths in political and economic thought

      May I suggest this book. It may help wake you up to understanding what is at the heart of most of our social problems. Climate Change being just one effect of those things. The ignorance and stupidity of people

      http://www.henrygeorge.org/pcontents.htm

    • keith gerrard

      The use of fossil based energy exploits less fortunate people on a scale far higher than any other form of exploitation, it is even responsible for a major percentage of the wars on our planet and the arms industry that this supports.
      Ask those who receive the remains of their children, returned from the oil wars in the middle east, if they would sooner help develop an alternate energy dependency.
      I still have one simple question Robin.
      What truth?

    • Robin Smith

      I can think of no worse form of exploitation as destroying the planet. That you fail to see this must be a big problem for you.

      The difficulty for most people is they seek to blame others when they are also complicit. This very quickly leads to us thinking that the effects of much deeper causes are the problem, when we only have to look to see this is false. When we are in a state of fear as is society today, we appear to be selfish and ignorant.

      The truth is the evidence given in the article we are discussing. Have you already forgotten. Are you OK?

      Read the book. Its free. It tells the simple facts with clarity. If you manage to do this you will know more about economics than a professor at Cambridge. You will also understand the real cause behind the enigma of climate change. US! All of us.

    • keith gerrard

      If you have issue with the high cost of electric vehicles Robin, I suggest you join with others and demand that the privately owned (oil industry motivated) big car manufacturers, use our money they received from government bail outs to prevent them going bankrupt and join with the criminal bankers (who have just screwed us all out of our money without going to prison where many of them should be).

      Perhaps if you asked nicely they might reduce the cost of the EVs they produce. Dont hold your breath however, the oil companies control almost all of the infra structures for fuel, production energy and much of the needed investment they need to survive.
      An EV production vehicle would be cheaper in comparison to a fossil fueled vehicle if there was a fair level playing field and production volume was the same. EVs are far less complex and even with the present £2000 to £3000 for batteries the cost comparison would favour the EV.
      This will never be the case while oil rules all our lives.

        • keith gerrard

          Next time I walk over the bridge of sighs and take a seat in the cloisters at St Johns, I will ask if it is possible to learn more from a book about economics and the human condition than from a profesor at Cambridge.

    • Robin Smith

      You are still refusing to admit the truth here.

      I have a problem with the EV lobby LYING to the public in order to gain special advantage.

      That is, they are attempting to exploit the people.

      Is that so hard to understand? Its no use blaming anyone else. They are lying plain and simple. It will always end up in tears. Yet they are so ignorant and selfish they keep persisting. You are explicitly supporting this action. You are therefore complcit too.

      Redeem yourself and start telling them to stop.

        • keith gerrard

          Hahaha
          OK. I would like to officialy ask anyone representing the green lobby to stop telling lies.
          Now Robin can you tell us what these lies actualy are?

            • Simba

              @keith gerrard

              As a representative of the green lobby and on behalf of all my brethren I would like to apologise for everything we’ve ever said. The higher cause (to remove our dependency on fossil fuels and make LOADS of money while we’re at it) was always at the heart of any misguided proclamations. To be perfectly honest with you, we just picked some numbers out of hat and ran with it!

              we will strive to be better people.

              And the oil industry started it!

    • Derek

      Dale

      The following link should give you more ideas for your Bio gas production.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-10884539

      Derek

        • keith gerrard

          Better method is to use the methane to run electric generators and feed the national grid.
          Electric cars are still the best method for road traction.
          Electricity is also by far the easiest way to distribute energy what ever the source. All that is needed is to replace fossil fuel as the source.
          All sewerage centers could build in methane production and use.

        • Dale Vince

          Thanks for the link Derek.

          Hi Keith, I have to disagree with you about burning methane to make electricity – being the most efficient thing to do with it. I don’t think it is.

          The fuel or energy efficiency of internal combustion engines hooked up to generators is tragically low – 40 to 50% perhaps. OK you can get much better if you can use the ‘waste heat’ through a CHP scheme – but they add another level of complexity to any generation project, and uncertainty.

          And even then you might achieve 70 to 80% fuel efficiency.

          Whereas using the gas as a source of heat, as a replacement for fossil gas, for cooking for example, will give fuel efficiencies perhaps in the 90’s. And we have a gas grid for distribution just as we do with electricity.

          Bio Gas is a great opportunity to replace fossil gas – and still use gas as a direct source of heat (something for which it is very effective/efficient).

          Cheers.

            • keith gerrard

              I agree that it is more efficient to use methane as a direct heat source without putting it through an engine Dale.
              However the thermal efficiency of methane generated electricity is not the main issue, reducing the amount of fossil CO2 is. No matter how inefficient using methane from bio digestion, it still does not add to the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere.
              Balancing the available alternate energy sources to make the most impact on reducing fossil fuel use should be the most important goal.
              I would probably go for a load controlled gas turbine/generator rather than an ic engine for direct electricity production. Even generating electricity from methane with an ic engine is better than drying and storing methane under pressure for use in mobile vehicles with ic traction.
              I see hybrid vehicles as a political/economic forced stop gap before full electric traction.
              It is in motor sport where the EV revolution will gain the most public impact. Unless the FIA and other regulating bodies can be motivated to structure ‘official’ formula for EVracing, nothing much is going to improve.

    • mark

      When it comes to EV’s I am generally in favour. They are pretty efficient at converting the chemical energy into electricity and back etc.

      However, what doesn’t ever seem to be answered are the following:

      Raw materials.

      The batteries seem to all contain pretty rare elements, which need to be mined from somewhere – and that seems to be miles away from the manufactures of the batteries and in petty inhospitable places.

      There is a cost – potentially huge – in getting these raw materials out. And the cost could be both monetary and environmental. I don’t know of many battery powered planes or ships.

      End of life.

      When the batteries are knackered, how do you dispose of them? Again, they are often rare elements – and nasty ones at that.

      And when they are knackered, they will need replacing – at a potentially higher cost than buying a new EV. Hardly environmentally friendly.

      Funnily enough I looked at the new Toyota hybrid on the net the other day.

      Its a con. Yes it will do 30mph on battery power – but for only about 1.5miles. That is a joke. It will be running 99% of its life on petrol. And carting around all the batteries/motor etc costing more to run the petrol engine.

      I also looked at the VW Toureg – they do a hybrid too. It makes about 3g/km reduction of Co2, compared to the smaller diesel engined version.

        • keith gerrard

          Well where to start.
          The huge difference between fossil fuels and batteries is that fossil fuel gets burnt and gets used up
          The chemicals in batteries does not.
          The rare elements may be almost as difficult and expensive to get from the ground as fossil fuels but unlike fossil fuels THEY CAN BE RECYCLED and if alternate energy is used to do so, without producing any extra CO2.

    • mark

      Keith,

      You still haven’t answered the questions!

      I really can’t see how the chemicals are removed/transported/disposed of in an environmental way.

      And it’s a big ask to say “If alternate Energy is used” In the short term at least, how are you going to get the stuff out of the ground and processed and then transported in an environmental way?

      Look, I am for EV and other environmental schemes working – but the true cost is just not admitted (As far as I can see!)

      It seems to me that the green lobby mostly “forget” the cost upto the point of installing the batteries (Or whatever). And the disposal cost in the same manner.

        • keith gerrard

          Like I keep pointing out, the monetary cost is irelevent.
          There realy is no alternative.
          Change to alternate energy is inevitable.
          It is going to be hard and will take time.
          The worst thing is prying loose the hold that the fossil energy lobby has on all our minds. That will get very very dirty.
          The Gulf of Mexico caused by cutting safety corners is but one example of the apples proving that their time is past.
          I wonder how much more of our planet these criminals will damage before the people realise the truth.

            • mark

              You are right, ultimately there is no alternative.

              The gulf. Yes, well. The truth of that one will probably never be really known.

              Except it was a useful diversion for the current US administration. I wouldn’t but it was an sub-contractor doing the work – and an american one at that.

              But until the green lot and traditional lot get there heads together and actually sort it out, it will go no where fast.

              And I’m afraid to say, that I think it is the green lot that will be the spoilers to that particular party.

    • keith gerrard

      The con is comparing apples with oranges.
      I think you will find EVs capable of giving reasonable performance and range even from the current ones available.
      The current technology is already out of date anyway.
      I expect a big increase in the media from those against alternate energy traction. The oil companies must be getting very very worried now.
      Here is an interesting point. It does not matter how much energy is used to recycle rare elements or produce electricity for the national grids so long as the energy is produced from sources that do not pollute or add to the CO2 in the atmosphere. Comparing the monetary cost with fossil fuel or nuclear is completely irelevent because there is no environmental damage or build up of nuclear waste. In the medium term such incentives will start to pay off and eventualy energy could even become free to the user.
      It is the human political systems that sustain the illusion of cost in the mind of the world public, mainly to feed wealth to a criminal minority.

        • mark

          EV’s have the performance to cater for most day to day transport.

          But that is almost the rub.

          Current full time EV’s seem to aim for 100mile range. (I’ll ignore the hybrids)

          So, that is 50miles each way, unless you can fast charge – because lets be honest, we want to be able to get there and back in a day.

          So, we now have a choice or two.

          EV for most journeys – to/from the office, shops etc.
          Normal car for longer journeys.
          So that could be 4 cars in a house, when two would be the norm. Depending on jobs – but almost certainly 3 cars.

          And whilst I agree that in principle, the amount of energy needed to recycle the batteries etc, it does matter, because people are not going to accept large scale wind farms all over the country to power it all. Or the coast covered in wave machines for that matter.

          And why are the oil companies worried? I think this is just something the green lobby dream up! It’s going to be years before oil demand drops, because there is not truly viable options for all the worlds needs.

          Unless we go back to horses and carts and ignore the last 150-200 years. And that is not going to happen, unless there is a world wide disaster.

          I am more concerned about places like China that seem to ignore all concerns about energy conservation, let alone human rights – but thats a different issue.
          And before you say it, I am aware that the per-capita energy usage of China is miles less than the USA for example, but that is not the point, they don’t use it efficiently.

            • keith gerrard

              We could have electric public transport for long journeys.
              There is an electric train that runs under the channel to France and transports passengers cars as well as just passengers. Now there is a thing!!! How about extending the concept further around the train network allowing the 100 mile range of EVs to work in balance with that. The cars could even be charged while on the trains. and it would free up space on the roads as well as improve the railways efficiency.
              What about using the internet more.
              How many jobs actualy need people to travel to one town to work, at the same time as another lot of people go in the other direction to work in the first town.
              Absolute stupid waste of time and energy.
              Get more people to work from home at least for some of the time.
              Shopping deliveries should be all electric vans charged at supermarkets with shopping ordered through virtual web facilities. Electric taxis would soon reduce the fare charges for those who still needed to travel short to medium distance through cheaper miles per £,
              It is all available now and just needs the will to put things in place.
              Next question.

                • Mark

                  Public Transport. Yes, ideally that is at least part of the answer. But it almost certainly goes to the wrong place, or the time it takes to get there is just to long.

                  As as a point of fact, when I go to London for work, I go via train. But most other places I go, its the car. There is no sensible viable alternative that is quick enough.

                  Yes, in an ideal world people would work near home – but if all members of the household work, chances are that they will work in different towns.
                  Its not like the old days, when there was only 1 member of the household that worked. Easy then.

                  Home working. Yes, I like doing that – but its not always possible. And sometimes people go to work to have the social interaction.

                  I would home work more – but there is little point. My office is about 1/2mile away.

                  Oh, and not forget, that its only workers that fly a desk that can home work. The (Fewer and fewer) people that actually do the work – you know the manufacturing jobs, need to goto a place of work. Not many wifes would be happy if the husband brought the 4tonne press home!

                  And lets not forget the construction industry. A huge number of poeple go from job to job all around the country.

                  The only way that EV’s are going to work, is to have charging points at most parking bays, preferably by induction, so all you have to do is stop and go – with the best will in the world, most ladies, and half the men are not going to want to pull out the charging lead and plug it in.

                  EV Taxi’s. Yeah, great idea. Its not like you can re-charge them like a conventional fuel. Time is needed. I can just see taxi drivers wanting to stop every 2hours for a 4 hour charge. Though, induction charging could be the solution.

                  Look, I am pro EV’s and alternative fuels, but until the green lobby actually demonstrate that it is a truly viable solution – not necessarily working models, but workable designs, then its going no where.

                  There are too many people that can put up a good arguement against it.

                    • keith gerrard

                      There are no arguments against alternate energy development. The change over to it is inevitable.
                      Of course there are many in the green lobby who try to live in an environmentaly friendly illusion of Utopia. It does not exist and never will.
                      What is needed is a far stronger and dedicated core in the green movements. People who have ‘common sense’ something sadly lacking in modern comfortable and weak society.
                      There are many technical problems that the fossil fuel exploiters will latch onto with the huge support of those with vested interest. They have enormous control within the media.
                      This is a world war, not a peaceful ban the bomb campaign.

                    • Mark

                      Hang on, you are portraying the oil firms as the bad boys here.

                      Lets step back a bit.

                      What do the Oil firms (And energy firms) want to do? Make Money.

                      If they thought they could make money out of green stuff, then they will do. The green lobby has to get into bed with these guys and make it happen. But they (Greens) need to have the ideas. Without them they will dead in the water.

                      And when the oil does run out, they will win no friends by saying “Told you So” They have to get off the morel high ground.

                      What it is not, is a world war. If that is what you really think, then it will go no where. Just look at Ireland. In the end the only solution (Which is not perfect!) is to sit down and talk.

                    • keith gerrard

                      Making money by damaging our living environment is the problem. Legislate world wide against this and the changes will happen.
                      Again you compare apples with oranges.
                      Profit and the American Dream is not only not the issue it is the very thing that is preventing progress.

                    • mark

                      Sorry, but you need to get in the real world and not the communist utopia that you seem to want to be in.

                      Money will be the only way that this is going to be solved.

                      And the person/company that do so, will make lots of it.

                      I’d be in favour of legislation as long as all countries abide by it That includes China, who, frankly have an appalling record. They are still using R22 refrigerant for example – mind you so are the Russians.

                      And as long as the legislation is right.

                      For example, fitting cat converters to cars, in most circumstances does nothing for the environment, apart from pollute it with harmful trace elements, and cause pollution in the mining of the raw materials, transport etc.

                      All the cats do is speed up the natural process.
                      The reason the Yanks in California had them was to help solve the problem of smog. Which they do help.

                      Pretty much everywhere else, they cause the vehicles to use more fuel.

    • Robin Smith

      @Mark

      “If they thought they could make money out of green stuff, then they will do. ”

      Er… Nope!

      You have misundertood the meaning of the term monopoly. Which means, make things MORE expensive and with lower quality, and still gain a free lunch from it.

      What BIG Fossil is actually doing is holding ou fo use the free energy that is sustainable.

      To see this all we have to do is look. And examine the simple facts with care.

      All the green lobby is guilty of is lying about what they really want. Jus tlike any other lobby of whatever colour

      Cheers

    • Robin Smith

      @Mark, apologies reposting due to typos

      “If they thought they could make money out of green stuff, then they will do. ”

      Er… Nope!

      You have misunderstood the meaning of the term monopoly. Which means, make things MORE expensive and with lower quality, and still gain a free lunch from it.

      What BIG Fossil is actually doing is holding out of use the free energy that is sustainable.

      To see this all we have to do is look. And examine the simple facts with care.

      All the green lobby is guilty of is lying about what they really want. Just Like any other lobby of whatever colour

      Cheers

    • mark

      I know exactly what a Monopoly is – apart from the board game 🙂

      The oil companies aren’t one. By definition, there is more than one.

      You could argue that they are a cartel, but not a monopoly.

      But Robin, we could argue this till the oil runs out. I am basically on the side of green ideas.

      It makes sense to save as much as we can, within reason. Because it will run out some day, and its not a race to use it as fast as we can.

        • keith gerrard

          So hmmm legislation is the answer mark?
          Nothing to do with communism either.
          In fact totaly the reverse.
          Money yes but not in the service of the greed brigade.
          It is this that has placed us in the position we are today.
          Of course the Earth realy does not care.
          The issue is humanity and our environment.

    • Robin Smith

      @Mark

      If you know everything then why are you denying the truth?

      You are as complicit in this as are Big Fossil. Blaming them and not yourself is a cop out.

      The ulitmate power lies with the masses

      The masses are voting for Big Fossil through the ballot, their pocket and their work. That is YOU and ALL and ME. There is no special exemption. Remember May 6th? W voted for more pain because we are selfish and ignorant as a whole

      To change to a non destructive economy would it not be certain if we all voted for what is best for ALL than just ourselves?

        • keith gerrard

          British people voted for what was put before them, those that did vote had very little choice Robin.
          The masses as you put it, are kept in ignorance for the most part, a little bit of wealth and comfort maintains their complacency.
          I agree that May 6th was probably the biggest con ever put across this country but it was simply the latest in a long line of cons going back almost a century and probably much further, American society is built on it (and oil).
          There is a reason for this corrupt greed but I am not going into that on Dales forum. I think he must be more aware of it now than when he started ecotricity.
          If the people are ignorant Robin then help to educate them dont tell them what most already know.

    • charlie mylchreest

      Just found this thread, fascinating stuff and project.

      You may all be interested in this pretty groundbreaking development of the traditioanl TT on the Isle of Man – a true petrol-head even if ever there was one…

      http://www.egrandprix.com/

      I doubt if it will ever extinguish the ‘real’ TT (rightly so), but it’s causing a stir..

    • keith gerrard

      egrandprix are running electric motor bike championships all around the world charlie, including a British Championship.
      It is a shame that electric car racing continues to be held back.

        • charlie mylchreest

          It’s a start! It was only a few years ago that those involved with the TT laughed at the proposition of an electric race at the event. Now a championship…

          I see hope for the Nemesis…..maybe SAIC will create an MG version to compete!

            • keith gerrard

              I dont think Nemesis was ever designed as a competition vehicle in a motorsport sense. Dale?
              This is the current problem that is preventing much of electric car development. There is no official body running electric car racing within a sensible framework of regulations.
              There are many advanced EVs that show off the technology but it is only in electric motor cycle racing that proper regulated series are being run.
              Those of us who have a few years of conventional car racing experience and support EV’s, realise that to establish such a regulatory frame work is the only way forward for EV’s. Motoring history shows that the rapid development and use of conventional ic engined vehicles was motivated in the most part by proper competition to establish the best technologies.
              I have an official paper before the FIA AEC (alternate energy commision) on this very subject. However the FIA and other motorsport bodies are stalling on this subject.
              I believe this is for a number of reasons.
              They are concerned that EV technology is not yet mature enough for them risk an involvement (they are wrong), even though the FIA already regulate EV’s on safety issues very effectively.
              The ‘motor head’s are objecting to the lack of noise and the effect they believe EV racers will have on their sport.
              The major block to EV racing is from the fossil fuel lobbies and vested interests in oil at any sign of EV progress.
              There are formulas in use and under scrutiny that promote hybrid racing and KERS will be back in a basic form next year in F1(I have a system under consideration) but this is not pure EV racing and at present has little effect on alternate energy use or public perception.
              Let us not forget that the first land speed record for a car was won by an EV and for short periods in the past EV road vehicles have been more effective than ic vehicles for transport purposes.
              Campaigning for electric vehicle racing within an official regulatory framework should be the next major move by all supporters of alternate energy development.
              What do you think Dale?

    • yoni levy

      “egrandprix are running electric motor bike championships all around the world charlie, including a British Championship.
      It is a shame that electric car racing continues to be held back.”\

      we’re living in a world that the only thing that matter, it’s money. that is why you feel a shame about this. Profits first, think about the implication letter.

    • Robin Smith

      What a weird thing to say. I live in a world where the first thing I think about is water, food, shelter, clothing, warmth and then once I can get all that luxury then further education.

      Money is the common means of exchange, the most exchanged thing. To imply it is bad is strange. It only becomes money because it is the thing that most people use to exchange things with each other. If this was not so it would not be the money! This is what gives it the power to command wealth in the most efficient way. It is the most useful way to do that. Anything else used would be less useful and require more work

      Yet if some people where acquiring money without having worked for it, then that is a different matter. That activity would be unjust and corrupt. But to blame the money is barking up the wrong tree. You should be blaming the social institutions that allow that theft of wealth to happen in the first place. Not the money.

        • keith gerrard

          I prefer to think of money in the same way as electricity.
          It is not a source of energy/wealth, it is just the best way to apply it and move it around.
          Now Power is another thing altogether.
          That can manifest from a wide range of sources.
          Unfortunately the ‘green lobby’ is not one at present.

    • Robin Smith

      I half agree. If it were the best way to move it around we would not also be burning all the fossils we could lay our hands on. It COULD be. Yet it is not.

      In that sense lekky is as corrupted as money in terms of how it has been monopolised through its creation by private banks

      Sadly the green lbby is nearly as corrupt as the brown. Look what they did to nuclear power.

        • keith gerrard

          I am sorry Robin, I do not fully understand what you mean.
          Corruption is always to be deplored but it is not the issue here either in the fossil lobby or the green lobby.
          The issue is to reduce and eventualy stop increases in CO2 in our atmosphere. Frankly it matter little if this is done by methods perceived by some as corrupt or not.
          What is your point about nuclear power?
          We have nuclear power and the risks it brings with it and the waste removal costs. In principle I would like to see it cleaned up and fazed out but it is not an easy task.

    • Robin Smith

      Its quite simple to understand. When a corporation or individual holds out of use, natural resources, placed there by nature, for the equal use of all people and then charges a RENT for their use, that is corrupt and unjust. The point is that monopolies by their nature make things more expensive and more wasteful.

      Browns do this so obviously its painful when it is still denied by otherwise intelligent people.

      Greens do it by saying that nuclear power is more dangerous than anything in the whole universe when simple observed facts show that to be a lie. It was great marketing by the greens and very successful. But it is still a lie. I have primary evidence of how the green lobby against nuclear has been funded by big oil interests. The irony is the lobby groups do not know it! If you want evidence it would not hurt to spend some time studying Environmentalsits for Nuclear Energy. http://www.ecolo.org/. Of course you can avoid the evidence if you like. But you will be no wiser.

      Greens also do it by saying that if we all turn off our mobile chargers we can save the planet. When if we want to do big things little things are useless.

      Green corporations and sustainable power interests do it by telling explicit lies about how energy efficient their products are when the simple observed facts say that are not as good as the claims by a long way. They are seeking a monopoly over the supply of their product.

      Why is this so difficult to understand? Children I speak to know it intuitively. Intelligent adults are in constant state of denial because they are scared of becoming poor and must feed those children

      The sad thing is there is abundant energy, food, water, land, air etc etc to go around with plenty to spare. But we seem determined to focus on the effects of injustice (climate change) rather than the cause. Its much easier to blame nature for climate change than ourselves. How stupid.